Curse

AxemRangerBlue · Aug 19, 2006, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shika Xblade

i must applaude u AxemRangerBlue for having thought out such an elaborate storyline and background and such for a profession like this in Guild Wars, but there are several things wrong with it.
Targeting the shapeshifting deal, maybe we could look at the GW Universe as it is right now. At now point in the entire game can u change your form allowing you to altogether turn into a new being with new skills availible. Never. Nowhere. It doesnt happen, becuase they made GW so that its your character, and all you are is human.

That's what I'm trying to change. I imagine that -some- day, ANet will get with the program and offer other races, or something along those lines. Heavens knows we already have a Tengu Henchman. At any rate, just because we don't have something now doesn't mean we can't have it ever. That's the whole point of these suggestions, ne?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shika Xblade

And now to attacking your plans for skills

first peeve: why are there no actual values for energy, cast time, recharge time? thats what could make the cheepest skill in the game or the biggest waste ever.

If you read the key at the beginning of the guide, you'd notice that the H, M, and L give *relative* ideas of the costs of each one. I'd be leaving the actual values for each one up to ANet, because they're better at that sort of thing than I am. It's their job, for Pete's sake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shika Xblade

WTF IS EARSHOT

If you'd been keeping up with the updates on the GW website, you'd know that "earshot" is the new term to define the range of Shouts. It doesn't change the range of shouts, but it puts a word on what already *is*.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shika Xblade

Seeking Scream. Skill. Energy: M. Cast: L. Recharge: H. All independent non-hostile creatures in the area become allied to your party for (20..120) seconds. If any one of them, or any creatures already allied to your party dies while this ability is in effect, all Therians gain Therian Ire of +5 base damage and +7 armor for 7 seconds each. When this ability ends, the wild creatures will disappear.
>>>...if i read this right, the previously non-hostile creatures disappear after effected by this skill? wtf happens? do they die? float away in a breeze? get flushed down the toilet wtf?

This would be to say that they run away. However, actually scripting their running away would be annoying and still allow people to call back the creatures, maintaining an MM-like army of Level 5 Melandru's Stalkers, or whatever. Thus, they disappear. Notice also that this is only for things like Stalkers that aren't enemies. Think Moa Birds, or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shika Xblade

Beckon Lifeblood. Elite Split Lore Ritual. Energy: H. Cast: H. Recharge: H. For (5..25) seconds, you gain (25..75)% of all piercing damage you do to foes as health recovery but attack 33% slower.
>>>Way unbalanced leach skill. Easily stacked with ranger secondary preps and bow skills and attack speed boosts

The only major unbalanced thing I see about it is the time duration, which I agree should be changed. However, because it isn't a "Skill," Rangers would use up most or all of their energy casting it (notice Energy: H), and also not be able to use any other Elite skills. And, they attack more slowly. Way more slowly. Barrage can't be used in conjunction with this, for example, and also you don't do -more- damage when using it--you simply get healed for some of the damage done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shika Xblade

Blind Fury. Split Conditional Enchantment. Energy: L. Cast: L. Recharge: M. Can only be used when you are Blind or Dazed. Bestows Therian Ire of +(7..17 damage) and +(5..15)% armor penetration for (5..12) seconds. This skill ignores the effects of Dazed while casting.
>>>worthless skill if it was real; only effective while under uncommon conditions, gives a dmg bonus unworthy of mention, doesnt live up to high energy and cast

Another case of your not reading the whole thing causing confusion on your part. Therian Ire is a new proposed Condition. Using this Skill does not make Blind or Dazed go away, but it makes you more deadly if people use it on you. I might mention that Blind is a fairly common PvE condition, and Dazed is often viewed as extremely useful (though usually hard to inflict) in PvP: this skill would enable countering that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shika Xblade

thats all im reading cuz this post is longer than a list of all the skills in the game already

I'd have to differ. There were 300 skills added just in the Factions expansion alone, according to their website, and I'm sure the number of skills provided here falls well under that number. Additionally, by providing more skills than are absolutely necessary, I flesh out additional ideas that may be more useful/viable than some of the others here.
And if you're not going to read more, I'm not sure why I'm answering you, as you're clearly missing key points right and left.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shika Xblade

i could list every thing but i think i can nix ~ all of them with this: you're not thinking in terms of their relationship with other skills. The terms already established like "item holding" or "lead", "exaustion" etc, all have connections to other skills.

If you look at the post of mine that you quoted, you might notice that I explicated how each new characteristic of the Therian novelties is related to an extant one, e.g. Howls are a modified version of Shouts, much as Chants are for Paragons. Try re-reading it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shika Xblade

If u dont notice what im getting at, each term has a fundamental purpose, wither it to keep the damage from being to exploitable, or to keep energy higher on the lower scale, but the purpose is BALANCE. Each term has to do with a balance needed for the game to be what it is.

Going back to your original post, i think it was very well done in your attempt to balance the profession and make it interesting, but the fact is you overthought it by miles. Way too complicated conditions for not that good effects, unspecified energy, cast, recharge values make it difficult to validate your efforts at all.

You have here a combination of opinion and misunderstanding. You're entitled to the former, and I hope I've clarified the latter with this post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shika Xblade

It was entertaining to read some of those words though... you should defenitely write to Webster and have them add a lot of em

And this says to me that you don't have much of a vocabulary, as most (if not all) of the words I've used here are, in fact, actual English terms (though some are GW-specific, such as "Melandru"). I'm willing to define any of the ones you still don't understand--just give me a list.

Thank you for the feedback, incidentally.

actionjack · Aug 19, 2006, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Oh, did I see someone trying to change topic? :-)
I am just messing with ya.

I will comment something about shape shifting. (the rest seem too complex for my little brain)

Quote:

Physical Shift. Split Skill. Energy: M. Cast: M. Recharge: 60 seconds. Changes your human form to your beast form, or vice versa. The skill lineup for each state is different. This skill is usable in towns and outposts, where it will recharge instantly and costs no Energy. You may not use non-Therian
skills that cause Exhaustion or require sacrifice while shifted.

I assume this is your generalization of shape shfiting skill? One thing I am not sure is beast form... do you have more than one, or like an were-beast, only one form? I am guessing this is just example, and you have Bear Shift, Wolf Shift, and such? Would be better to judge if we see the examples for the numbers on the energy, cast, and recharge. Not sure if need to be usable in town, but its a fun idea.

Personally, I love transformation skills, as it allow you to change from one type (caster) to another (melee), and visa versa. It add more strategy, and is a good defensive and offensive tool.

Here is how I wrote mine before...

Quote:

Shapeshifting:
I am everyone has their own version of shapshifting. Here is mine suggestion of it. Shapeshifting is a skill. When cast, you will start the transformation, which make you immobile for 2 second and 20% weaker in AL (same apply when you transformed back). Each shape has its own HP boost, which you gain when you transformed (somewhat like that of Warrior’s Endurance) but will lost 75% of that boost when you transformed back. (in doing some math, say you have 100hp, you turn into a bear, which gives you +100hp boost, you get 80hp damage while you are a bear, and you transformed back, so now you are left with 45 hp) Transformation will last about 10-20 seconds, or whenever you want to transform back. While in a bestial shape, you cannot use any human skills or spells or weapons, and loose all bonus gain from equipped weapon and armor runes in duration, as well as 2 pip of Energy Regen. Each shape will have its own AL and Attack Power and Movement speed, and can use certain Beast skills. And here is one interesting thing I came up with. While in Bestial Shape, an ally can target you with Ranger’s beast mastery skills, giving you the buff as that of a Pet.
An alternative to shape shifting would be Bestial Spirit Possessing. Pretty much same as above, but you would still look human but with just a bestial aura cover around you.

Bear Shape:
15e | 2c | 60r : You Shapeshift into a Bear Shape for T seconds with + X hp boost (around 160hp). Bear have good defense and attack power, but slower movement and attack speed.

Wolf Shape:
15e | 2c | 60r : You Shapeshift into a Wolf Shape for T seconds with + X hp boost (around 120hp). Wolf is well average all around.

Panther Shape:
15e | 2c | 60r : You Shapeshift into a Panther Shape for T seconds with + X hp boost (around 100hp). Panther has strong attack and speed, but lack defense.

It need some update and redrafting, but I still like the general idea of it. The HP and AL boost would be one advantage to change forms. However, you are weak and could be interupted while changing, thus add the stratgy of when and where to change.

And I just got a bright idea moment ago. Someone pointed out that having beastial attack skill is a waste of space on the skill belt. One way to go about it would be (taking inspration from arcanemacabre's Feral) have it usable while in human form.... BUT only if you have a Claw type of melee weapon equipted. So with it, you could make a Savage-like claw fighter with shape shifting as attack booster and equipe lots Beast attak skills, or be more of a caster with shap shifting more as a defensive means, but primary use spells.

AxemRangerBlue · Aug 19, 2006, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjack

Oh, did I see someone trying to change topic? :-)
I am just messing with ya.

I will comment something about shape shifting. (the rest seem too complex for my little brain)

I assume this is your generalization of shape shfiting skill? One thing I am not sure is beast form... do you have more than one, or like an were-beast, only one form? I am guessing this is just example, and you have Bear Shift, Wolf Shift, and such? Would be better to judge if we see the examples for the numbers on the energy, cast, and recharge. Not sure if need to be usable in town, but its a fun idea.

Personally, I love transformation skills, as it allow you to change from one type (caster) to another (melee), and visa versa. It add more strategy, and is a good defensive and offensive tool.

Here is how I wrote mine before...

It need some update and redrafting, but I still like the general idea of it. The HP and AL boost would be one advantage to change forms. However, you are weak and could be interupted while changing, thus add the stratgy of when and where to change.

And I just got a bright idea moment ago. Someone pointed out that having beastial attack skill is a waste of space on the skill belt. One way to go about it would be (taking inspration from arcanemacabre's Feral) have it usable while in human form.... BUT only if you have a Claw type of melee weapon equipted. So with it, you could make a Savage-like claw fighter with shape shifting as attack booster and equipe lots Beast attak skills, or be more of a caster with shap shifting more as a defensive means, but primary use spells.

Whoever pointed out that having a bestial attack slot as a waste of space clearly didn't get it. As I mentioned in the class description, you have a chance of performing Claw, Lunge, and Bite attacks normally when equipped with Therian Augment weapons in the Shift state--the chances for each one to occur are based on what you have equipped. The skills, then, may cause certain effects if you happen to use one of those attacks by chance (though it will have to be one of the three, always), or may cause one of the attacks in particular, depending on which Skill you're thinking of. Each one should say which is the case in its description.

As to what determines your beast form--I'm thinking an NPC that allows you to switch it in towns, if you provide certain materials and money. This would allow people to use Extract Latent on themselves when in shifted form to gain the skill they want: a Therian nuker might select a were-Charr form so as to have Storm of the Searing available. However, in doing so, that nuker would have to have Physical Shift and Extract Latent on their skill bars, so it would be a trade-off of utility versus space.
Additionally, some people would want certain shifts just because they like certain ones best, which is also fine.

actionjack · Aug 19, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

I don't think I catch that... chance of doing clawn, lunge, and bite attck? don't they come from a skill?

I think pre-determin beast form is alright, but dislike the restrictive use of Latent. That seems to limit and narrow the build too much, and not the openess of the combo choice that GW promots.

Also one thing I am uncertain about yours is the duration of the shift. Are they temporarty with limite duration, or as long as you want? (I vote for duration)

It is fine for a single class, but one thing you did not stress too much on in your concept is proffessional comboing. It need not only be a good class of it self, but also offer skills that would add to the exisiting class, be it as primary, secondary, or teamates. Think, what would War/The got off it, how might a The/Ass build be like, would Monk like to have The as 2nardy? Also how might one counter the new mechanic presented in such class, and what are their weakness as well as strong point. Afterall, it is the Dual Proff system that make GW's class attractive.

AxemRangerBlue · Aug 19, 2006, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjack

I don't think I catch that... chance of doing clawn, lunge, and bite attck? don't they come from a skill?

I think pre-determin beast form is alright, but dislike the restrictive use of Latent. That seems to limit and narrow the build too much, and not the openess of the combo choice that GW promots.

Also one thing I am uncertain about yours is the duration of the shift. Are they temporarty with limite duration, or as long as you want? (I vote for duration)

It is fine for a single class, but one thing you did not stress too much on in your concept is proffessional comboing. It need not only be a good class of it self, but also offer skills that would add to the exisiting class, be it as primary, secondary, or teamates. Think, what would War/The got off it, how might a The/Ass build be like, would Monk like to have The as 2nardy? Also how might one counter the new mechanic presented in such class, and what are their weakness as well as strong point. Afterall, it is the Dual Proff system that make GW's class attractive.

I'm afraid I don't understand the entirety of what you're saying, but I'll do my best to answer what I think it is you're saying.

When you have a Warrior, for example, that Warrior has a tendency to occasionally strike in different ways when attacking. (If the Warrior just had the sword and looped the same stab over and over, it would get really boring. So they mix it up.) Sometimes it will appear as though the Warrior slashes several times, while other times it will look like a single swing. (A similar thing happens with attacks by Ranger pets. They don't just sit there and use the same animation every time, but rather have a variety of attack animations available.)
For Claw, Lunge, and Bite, it's the same way. When equipped with Therian Augment weapons and you attack, you will always attack with one of those three--Claw, Lunge, or Bite. Sometimes you'll get one, sometimes you'll get another. The chances (percentage-wise) of getting each one depends on things you have equipped. For example, some Skills will alter the effects of the next Claw attack you use (but you have to wait until a Claw attack comes around normally), while others guarantee that the next one will be a Claw Attack that has such-and-such effects to it.

The Physical Shift is designed to be a permanent "toggle" effect. You switch back and forth to reflect what skills you are wanting to use. If you get to town and acquire a new skill that works better with a "caster" build, then you might decide to switch back to Native form and swap out the Shift skills that are no longer useful in that form. The entire system I have created centers around this "toggle"-like ideology, and as such a duration-based system in conjunction with this arrangement would be ineffective.

Latent attacks are designed to be kind of like a semi-Elite skill, in that you have to make choices in order to use them. You can only carry one Elite skill, and in the same way, you can only ever have one Latent at a time. If you decide that you want a particular Latent skill always at your beck and call, then it's up to you to have the aforementioned NPC change the species of your Shift to that particular species that you want. If, on the other hand, you want it to be catch as catch can (for PvE), then you can use it on foes you run across and extract Latent skills from them on-the-fly. The skill requires that sort of sacrifice if you intend to use it--you can either choose to conform your species to the Latent you want, or risk not being able to do much with it on the go.

The Therian class is designed to compliment most other professions as a primary or secondary choice; however, Therian secondaries will find little benefit from the Pack Forging skills (much like Divine Favor skills for Monk secondaries). If you would like specific examples of how this would work, please give me a clear listing of what you would like to see, and I'll see what I can do.

Again, thank you for your feedback.

actionjack · Aug 19, 2006, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxemRangerBlue

I'm afraid I don't understand the entirety of what you're saying, but I'll do my best to answer what I think it is you're saying.

When you have a Warrior, for example, that Warrior has a tendency to occasionally strike in different ways when attacking. (If the Warrior just had the sword and looped the same stab over and over, it would get really boring. So they mix it up.) Sometimes it will appear as though the Warrior slashes several times, while other times it will look like a single swing. (A similar thing happens with attacks by Ranger pets. They don't just sit there and use the same animation every time, but rather have a variety of attack animations available.)
For Claw, Lunge, and Bite, it's the same way. When equipped with Therian Augment weapons and you attack, you will always attack with one of those three--Claw, Lunge, or Bite. Sometimes you'll get one, sometimes you'll get another. The chances (percentage-wise) of getting each one depends on things you have equipped. For example, some Skills will alter the effects of the next Claw attack you use (but you have to wait until a Claw attack comes around normally), while others guarantee that the next one will be a Claw Attack that has such-and-such effects to it.

The Physical Shift is designed to be a permanent "toggle" effect. You switch back and forth to reflect what skills you are wanting to use. If you get to town and acquire a new skill that works better with a "caster" build, then you might decide to switch back to Native form and swap out the Shift skills that are no longer useful in that form. The entire system I have created centers around this "toggle"-like ideology, and as such a duration-based system in conjunction with this arrangement would be ineffective.

Latent attacks are designed to be kind of like a semi-Elite skill, in that you have to make choices in order to use them. You can only carry one Elite skill, and in the same way, you can only ever have one Latent at a time. If you decide that you want a particular Latent skill always at your beck and call, then it's up to you to have the aforementioned NPC change the species of your Shift to that particular species that you want. If, on the other hand, you want it to be catch as catch can (for PvE), then you can use it on foes you run across and extract Latent skills from them on-the-fly. The skill requires that sort of sacrifice if you intend to use it--you can either choose to conform your species to the Latent you want, or risk not being able to do much with it on the go.

The Therian class is designed to compliment most other professions as a primary or secondary choice; however, Therian secondaries will find little benefit from the Pack Forging skills (much like Divine Favor skills for Monk secondaries). If you would like specific examples of how this would work, please give me a clear listing of what you would like to see, and I'll see what I can do.

Again, thank you for your feedback.

I am sorry you don't entirely understand what I am saying. I have that problem myself sometime.

I get what you are saying with chance of bite and claw and lunge. Will they have melee attack difference? (claw as slash and bite as pierce) But even so, I think that is more or less just the attack animation, and not what I was bringing up in the previous post, which is about the use of skills, which as you term it, "Shift skills".

I dislike the toggle effect. If it is toggle, than what is the purpose of making a dual class? Its like saying one class could have the effect of all class combos. Might as well as let us play a straight charr or minotaur character instead.

I also still dislike the 1-to-1-ness of the latent skill. very little flexiblity. It is like saying adding a Maul beastmstery skill that would knockdown a foe, but can only be use if you pet is a bear. Just seem too pigeonhole.

For questions, give me an example of how Elm/Ther might work, as well as what new playing style might Assa/Ther and/or Ther/War could bring to the table.
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On a side note... I think Beelzebuddy is getting off topic. Your likes and dislike should be your opinion only, and don't need to force it down on anyone who think differntly than you. (althought I never do understand why so many pictures of "furry females" are depic in a sexual way... like whats up with this... I like lassie... but I don't LOVE her...) Anyhow.. stay on topic of concept class if you please.

AxemRangerBlue · Aug 26, 2006, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjack

I am sorry you don't entirely understand what I am saying. I have that problem myself sometime.

No problem. I'm just glad you ask when you don't understand something--it helps us all to get along better, and for ideas to make more sense. Others may also have the same questions you do, and will get answers because you asked. It's all good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjack

I get what you are saying with chance of bite and claw and lunge. Will they have melee attack difference? (claw as slash and bite as pierce) But even so, I think that is more or less just the attack animation, and not what I was bringing up in the previous post, which is about the use of skills, which as you term it, "Shift skills".

They could be different, maybe, but that's not the idea I originally had in mind. However, any one of them -could- happen each time you attack...you just don't know for sure which one, unless the skill you just used says that the next attack will be such-and-such (rather than "the next Claw attack...", which means you have to hope a Claw Attack shows up for that skill to do anything.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjack

I dislike the toggle effect. If it is toggle, than what is the purpose of making a dual class? Its like saying one class could have the effect of all class combos. Might as well as let us play a straight charr or minotaur character instead.

If we don't make a toggle effect, then the whole Shift/Native duality is pointless, which is a crucial balance element for the Therian class (that is, you can't have it all...you have to make choices, which will cause some things to have to be left behind.)
And if we made a Charr or Minotaur character that only existed for Therian primaries or something, all of the other classes would get jealous and want Charr Rangers (for example), since such things exist as enemies, and then ArenaNet would either A) bow to public opinion and make new races available to keep everyone happy, which would probably gobble up an entire chapters' worth of development due to the construction and animation involved, or B) ignore popular demand, making people mad. Either way, it's not pretty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjack

I also still dislike the 1-to-1-ness of the latent skill. very little flexiblity. It is like saying adding a Maul beastmstery skill that would knockdown a foe, but can only be use if you pet is a bear. Just seem too pigeonhole.

I can understand what you're saying. However, it's one way in which Therian players will have to make sacrifices (in the interests of balance, of course). You might like this one Shift species best, but if you want the Latent of this other species, you either have to run into one when out and about, or change the species of your shift. Again, you can't have it all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjack

For questions, give me an example of how Elm/Ther might work, as well as what new playing style might Assa/Ther and/or Ther/War could bring to the table.

An Ele/Therian could, for example, use a standard array of Ele spells, in conjuction with Melandru's Serenity to provide more Energy, Runic Shock to wreak havoc on opponents and their Conditions, and Paralyzing Glower as an interrupt ('cause you can never have enough interrupts).
A/Th or W/Th builds could focus on Conditional backlash, using such things as Spirit of Pity or Howl of Suffering, or choose instead to fuel abilities like Schizoid Spasm and Transverse Slash with the Energy-stealing power of Synchronous Sap. The options are diverse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjack

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On a side note... I think Beelzebuddy is getting off topic. Your likes and dislike should be your opinion only, and don't need to force it down on anyone who think differntly than you.

Your support is appreciated, and I agree. Someone apparently reported his trolling or something, as it's no longer here for some reason. (A thank you goes out to the admin that handled it.)

Again, I appreciate your continued feedback.

krugericlaw · Aug 30, 2006, 07:02 PM // 19:02

The first one is the Awesomeness. =D WHEE!

AxemRangerBlue · Sep 06, 2006, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by krugericlaw

The first one is the Awesomeness. =D WHEE!

Um...not sure what you mean there. The first Skill? The first section? The first attribute?

Clarify for me, and then I might have things to clarify for you as well.

Carl Butanananowski · Sep 06, 2006, 04:15 AM // 04:15

I still support this completely